The Shock Doc wrote:

OK Tony, this is my last post on this. I want to TRY to consolidate & condense this so you know exactly what I am saying.  Hopefully , you wont take it out of context like everything else, so far.  I am trying to EXPLAIN what is happening, not bashing. You know me. I call em like I see em. It may look like bashing, but I certainly would take the work/retirement package you have in a heartbeat. You had a great deal. Its just not there for todays workers.  The golden goose is dead in part, because of a global economy. No government , nor management could foresee it, nor can correct that. 1.) The Unions did a great job,THAT WAS NEEDED, up until the late 70's 2.) Early 70's , Japs introduced Datsuns, Hondas, etc. The US Public BOUGHT THEM. (Courtesy of Post War state of the art steel plants we built them)     (First was the first nail in domestic automakers coffin) 3.) I will repeat that IF A COMPANY MAKES A PROMISE, THEY BETTER DELIVER. 4.) My statement about what you do in retirement stands. You need to realize the hard facts. You, as a retiree, produce nothing right now.  A dead cost to the company, with no return. BEFORE YOU GET NUTS, I agree they owe it to you. See #3.    Doesnt change the fact as to how many retirees making , what 80% of their old salary?  These retirees are still a burden to the bottom line, whether its owed to them or not. Again, See #3. You are OWED that.      (Second nail in coffin, because the management failed to see a global economy coming, and basically had more faith in Americans to buy American built product. Had they known, they would have negotiated harder with the Unions.  We, as Americans, didnt buy domestic.) 5.) Chapter 11.  This is not as simple or as easy as you would like to think. You just dont throw a switch and Claim 11.   Doing so is DEADLY to a company, and done as a last resort.  To come out of Chapter 11 is actually quite a feat for a corporation.      a.) essentially kills any and all financing.      b.) Kills your Bond rating. I made good money of GM's bonds in the late 80's. They were           paying 11.5% because their rating was in the toilet.      c.) your cost of goods is higher, because the suppliers want more compensation for the risk,          when they sell to someone under protection, ALTHOUGH by law, a company can not be          delinquent on bills once they file! Once they go 7, they are done. I doubt that GM would spend the money on negotiating, if they had any inkling of filing Chapter 11. Doesnt make sense.  MAYBE they were making a hail mary attempt, and economic conditions killed the attempt? Dont know. Your Union wouldnt know either.  Thats all Corporate files with no access. The Unions only get to see what the Company WANTS them to see. Either way, GM would not file 11 JUST to get out of a labor contract, despite what your BA says.   If GM is to survive in todays market, they need to take their lumps on prior commitments, but drastically cut wages and benefits for new hires, to match their competitors. Remember, the Benefits were only introduced to get people to work there in the first place. It was dangerous hard work. OSHA and the Unions changed those conditions.         OK, now that you can see I am NOT AGAINST you, and telling it like it is... I am going to tease you a bit. How much of that Yamaha is domestic?  LOL  Look at the Cat and Polaris workers you are spitting on!!!

FIRST I,LL ANSWER YOUR LAST PART ABOUT CAT AND POLARIS. NOW LAST TIME I CHECKED. CATS USED SUZUKI MOTORS AND POLARIS WENT TO U.S. BUILT MOTORS I BELIEVE IN 2001. BEFORE THAT WAS IT NOT FUJI ? 

 NOW YOU NEED TO REALIZE THE HARD FACTS. YOUR TRYING TO BACK PEDAL OUT OF YOUR STATEMENT #4 BECAUSE YOUR KNOW YOU BASISLY MIGHT OF INSULTED ALOT OF PEOPLE THAT WORKED THEIR ENTIRE LIFES AND TO POST THAT ON HERE IS A DISGRACE, MAYBE AFTER YOUR DONE WORKING FOR THIRTY FIVE YEARS YOU MIGHT EXPECT NOTHING. IF YOU THINK ITS SUCH A CRITICAL BLOW TO GENERAL MOTORS TO WHAT THAT PAY TO THEIR RETIRES , I AM GONNA POST ONE OF THE RESTUCTING PROPOSLS I RECIEVED ON MONDAY FROM GM CEO G.RICHARD WAGONER. THERE WERE NINE CATAGOREIES ON THIS RECOVERY PLAIN. I WON,T POST ALL NINE BECAUSE IT MOSTLY INVOLVES SHAREHOLDERS. HERE IS PROPOSL # 4.

BEGINING IN 2009, ELIMINATING HEALTH CARE COVERAGE FOR OUR U.S. '' SALARIED '' RETIREES OVER 65 AND OFFSETING IT BY PENSION INCRESE.

PROPSL #7

DEFFEREING CASH PAYMENTS RELATED TO OUR 2007 HEALTH CARE AGREEMENT WITH OUR MAJOR UNION.

1. I SEEN PLANT CLOSEING AND RESTRUCTING IN THE SEVENTIES. SAME UNION THAN AS NOW.

2. OUR UNION DEMISED THE INPORTS UP UNTIL THE EARLY EIGHTES WITH SLEDGE HAMMER PARTYS AT OUR MEETING.

3. REALLY, IF A COMPANY KEEPS A PROMISE. WELL WE WERE VALEO AFTER GM SPUN US  THEY FILLED CHAPTER 11 IN 2000 BECAUSE THEY COULD NOT LIVE WITH OUR CONTRACT AND GEEZ!! DID NOT DELPHI FILE CHAPTER 11 AFTER THEIR CONTRACT. !!

NOW I,LL ANSWER YOUR POST ABOUT GM TO SURVIVE TODAY THEY MUST CUT WAGES , BENEFICTS, FOR NEW HIRES.

MY PLANT HAD A THREE TIER WAGE SCALE DOC. WHAT THE HELL YOU POSTING. WE ALL HAVE PAIDED INTO OUR HEALTH COVERAGE SINSE 2004. INCRESES EVERY YEAR. DELPHI JUST HAD THEIR PAY CUT IN HALF. WHY WOULD YOU POST THIS *** !! THIS IS OLD NEWS. THE UNIONS HAVE BENT OVER BACKWARDS TO HELP THESE COMPANYS SURVIE. I BEEN ON THE INSIDE AND SEEN IT. AND THAT WAS IN 2004. THE UNIONS HAVE GAVE BACK MORE THAN ENOUGH CONCESSIONS. GM PROBLEM TODAY, IN THE NINETES, THE EIGHTES, THE SEVENTIES IS AND ALWAYS WILL BE MIS MANGEMENT !!! MY LAST POST ON THIS. YOUR A VERY SMART MAN DOC, BUT YOU NEVER WORKED IN THE AUTO INDUSTRY LIKE I HAVE. IF THE UNION I SAW WAS STONED WALL LIKE WHAT YOUR REFERING TO, WE WOULD NOT BE HAVEING THIS ARGUEMENT. BUT THE UNION I SAW BENT OVER BACKWARDS TO TRY AND KEEP THAT BUSINESS IN ROCHESTER N.Y. !! AND ONE MORE THING, I WOULD OF NOT GOT THAT '' GREAT DEAL '' WITH OUT MY UNION. I WOULD OF BEEN KICK OUT THE DOOR LIKE OUR GREAT EASTMAN KODAK WITH NOTHING. END OF THIS FOR ME. 3:16 (yammie '' big '' tony) 

Tony-

 I did NOT backpedal on one single issue.   Insulted or not, when people are retired, they do not contribute to the bottom line. Its a burden the company carries. Its ALSO a burden the Company agreed to.

NOS42 wrote:

the unions have done alot for workers over all these years, I dont care what anyone says.....working at a non union shop for 15+ years, what a differance now working for a union backed facility. I realize that unions are not as strong as they once were, but they have done alot of good for the workers that alot of people have forgotten about. Take all the pension type agreements, all the different holiday type items, regular annual raises even thought might be small....how about health benfits!.....no private business gives this stuff because your a nice guy!....Its a very competive world right now and the working man always could use a voice in the work place. It might not be alot, but its something, and its better than getting fired for voicing your opinion.....I'm a CSEA member and my father was a United Steelworker for over 40+ years.....they do some good, I dont care what anybody says

MIKE, ARE YOU KIDDING ME. UNLESS YOU WERE A UNION MEMEBER IN 1940, FORGET ABOUT IT. THEY HAVE RUINED ANY UNION SHOP FOR 50 YEARS, lol!!! 3:16 (yammie '' big '' tony)

YAMMIEGOD316 wrote:

The Shock Doc wrote: Tony-  I did NOT backpedal on one single issue.   Insulted or not, when people are retired, they do not contribute to the bottom line. Its a burden the company carries. Its ALSO a burden the Company agreed to. NO DOC !! YOUR RIGHT, WHAT THEY DO FOR 35 AND 40 YEARS BEFORE!!!!!! NOT CONTRIBUTE !!! SO HERE IT IS. YOUR PROPOSEL. WORK THRITY FIVE YEARS , RETIRE, WALK OUT WITH NOTHING BECAUSE ITS A BURDEN. WHAT A DEAL. rotflmao. 3:16 (yammie '' big '' tony)

Tony,

  Good grief, you are beyond talking to Tony.  That is NOT what I said at all. READ THE LAST LINE. DO I NEED TO TYPE IN ALL CAPS SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND??

I give up. 

NOS42 wrote:

The Shock Doc wrote: Tony-  I did NOT backpedal on one single issue.   Insulted or not, when people are retired, they do not contribute to the bottom line. Its a burden the company carries. Its ALSO a burden the Company agreed to. Doc, you have to be kidding

Mike, you're messing with me right? 

 Just in case...

While the worker is employed, he executes a task. He is paid weekly for that task. He is WORKING. PRODUCING.

When retired, he is NOT WORKING, not executing a task. He is still getting paid, partially, to the extent of his pension promise. Thats FINE.  But he is still paid to sit home, producing nothing.

I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS BAD.  Simply that nothing gets done for the money they spend on retirees. No one can argue that point.  

The deal is the deal, and so be it. GM should honor that deal 100% regardless.   

 JUST STATING THE FACT THAT THE FORMER EMPLOYEE STILL COSTS THE COMPANY MONEY. What is so hard for everyone to understand?  He is promised it, he deserves it. It was part of his deal. But it still remains a cost.

 No one is saying that they dont deserve it. It was in their contract.

Is this clear enough? 

Not one word is a backpedal here. Simply stating facts.

One thing that I strongly disagree with, is renegotiating retiree benefits. When that retiree finally retires, he should be getting whatever his deal was, regardless of what it costs the company. Like lifetime Health Insurance for instance.

Companies should honor their agreement.