Geeeeeeeeeez all u rich guys throwing stock money around like toilet paper.how about putting some stock in that old dusty cat in my garage?might just make something else win a race besides them ski-doos. now wouldnt that be nice?That would be priceless.Looking for sponsers king,for the ice,PS800       p.s. Radial reed is giving us a free set of reeds.

DOC AND FORMULA111, I,LL SUM THIS WHOLE TOPIC UP FOR YOU GUYS, TELL ME HOW GREAT '' MANGEMENT '' HAS RUN THESE CORPERATIONS. EXAMPLE!!! HOW ABOUT ROCHESTER N.Y. GREAT EASTMAN KODAK.  YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT COMPANIES THAT WERE RUINED BY UNIONS. NOTHING BIGGER THAN EASTMAN '' NON-UNION KODAK '' !!! 40 YEARS OF VOTEING THE UNION OUT FOR SOFTBALL FIELDS, BOWLING ALLEYS , AND THEIR BIG FAT BONUS. YA KNOW WHAT THEY GOT FOR IT. GUYS WITH 25 AND 30 YEARS SHOW,IN THE DOOR. NOTHING, THEIR BENEFICTS STOP AFTER THREE MONTHS. THEIR 401 K SCREWED WITH AND NO PENSION. YOU TWO KEEP BLAMING THE UAW FOR GM PROBLEMS. NEXT TIME YOUR IN ROCHESTER, HAVE SOMEBODY TAKE YA WHERE EASTMAN KODAK USE TO BE. AND DOC I ,AM FARR FROM A UNION HYPECRITE, THE UNION SAVED MY THIRTY YEARS . I WAS ABLE TO KEEP MY HEALTH BENEFICTS, (which i pay alot more for now ) MY SENORITY AND MY PENSION.  3:16 (yammie '' big '' tony)

YAMMIEGOD316 wrote:

DOC AND FORMULA111, I,LL SUM THIS WHOLE TOPIC UP FOR YOU GUYS, TELL ME HOW GREAT '' MANGEMENT '' HAS RUN THESE CORPERATIONS. EXAMPLE!!! HOW ABOUT ROCHESTER N.Y. GREAT EASTMAN KODAK.  YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT COMPANIES THAT WERE RUINED BY UNIONS. NOTHING BIGGER THAN EASTMAN '' NON-UNION KODAK '' !!! 40 YEARS OF VOTEING THE UNION OUT FOR SOFTBALL FIELDS, BOWLING ALLEYS , AND THEIR BIG FAT BONUS. YA KNOW WHAT THEY GOT FOR IT. GUYS WITH 25 AND 30 YEARS SHOW,IN THE DOOR. NOTHING, THEIR BENEFICTS STOP AFTER THREE MONTHS. THEIR 401 K SCREWED WITH AND NO PENSION. YOU TWO KEEP BLAMING THE UAW FOR GM PROBLEMS. NEXT TIME YOUR IN ROCHESTER, HAVE SOMEBODY TAKE YA WHERE EASTMAN KODAK USE TO BE. AND DOC I ,AM FARR FROM A UNION HYPECRITE, THE UNION SAVED MY THIRTY YEARS . I WAS ABLE TO KEEP MY HEALTH BENEFICTS, (which i pay alot more for now ) MY SENORITY AND MY PENSION.  3:16 (yammie '' big '' tony)

Tony-

You were extremely fortunate to have what you have. There is no doubt. But there is no way in todays market, that ANY company can survive providing that cost.

  You blame management. Well, you are dead wrong. Thats a ruse used by Unions forever, to disguise the real reasons of what kills a business.

    These legacy costs are yet another reason there are no jobs here.  Look at what GM pays you right now.  WHAT do you produce right now. Zero, zip nada.  Now multiply that times the retirees. They paid you the highest wages while you were working, and now that you are NOT working, they are still paying huge numbers. They simply can not afford to meet the commitments they made in the past, and continue  to do so.  All the Hyundai, Yugos,et al, have ZERO legacy. They have a clean slate.   Thats a huge reason we cant be competitive.  THAT IS WHY THEY GO OFFSHORE so much.

Now before you go  completely off the wall, you need to remember how the UAW was in the 50's, fresh from WWII and Korean War. They had such a BOOM , they needed to entice people to come to work for them. Before WWII, there was no such thing as retirement, vacation, health insurance. Just like Korea, China, etal today. THEY are the AMERICA of the 50's business wise.   Today, we dont need to entice people to come to work fro outrageous money. You can offer $25/hour & health insurance, and the doors will be busted down. Thats OUR ECONOMY today.  

You use Eastman as an example. Perfect. Use a company thats been eliminated by technology. Who uses film today? Nobody.  Who uses a film type camera? Nobody. So just how does this company survive this technoboom?  Stay on the cutting edge, right? Eastman holds MANY patents that were stolen by Japanese and Chinese companies for these digital cameras. A US patent does not mean  on foriegn soil. NO protection. All thats is down the toilet. They find the patent, copy anything worthy, and produce it by someone making $2.00.  HOW IS THAT EASTMANS FAULT?   Our governemt has spent billions of dollars fighting anti-trust lawsuits, getting awards, with ZERO enforcement. My daughter worked in DC on Intellectual Properties as as an intern.  We're fighting a battle that we cant win.  And YOU said it yourself. They got huge annual bonus's. If they invested them, they would have a nice retirement. Instead, they probably have tons of toys to take its place.   

Now, just so you know, if a company promises a benefit, I feel they better darn well provide it. Its against the law for them to touch retirement accounts. I steward my companies retirement program, and there are more damn forms and legal papers to file, that I care to talk about. AND I USE AN ACCOUNTANT!!   

 

 

 

OK, enough of all that. I have a serious question to ask you.

 

Who are the largest Union employers?  Big Business, right?

Where is your retirement programs invested in? Trick question, it can only be Mid Cap and Large Cap corps, AKA Big Business.

The Dems are historically ANTI Big Business.

Unions traditionally support Democrats.

 

Why on Gods green earth would the rank & file support ANYONE that is trying to put their employer out of business, and where their retirement programs are invested?? 

I dont understand.

 

BTW, not trying to argue with you, just a civil conversation.

I have been a union guy for 18 years, and even in my management position I am allowed to keep my card. ThyssenKrupp is German owned, and is basically a German version of UTC with the exception that ThyssenKrupp is very union friendly and UTC (Carrier, Otis Elevatory, Sikorsky, etc.) is not. ThyssenKrupp is very active in this country with (ThyssenKrupp Elevator, Trucking, warehousing, steel production, crane and ship building, and the list goes on). The elevator constructors union is very strong, our guys are very well trained, and they do a very dangerous job. I am fortunate to have gotten into this business when I did, and I feel for all of the manufacturing type unions that are going down with the ship. This country need drastic change and needs to take drastic measures, and it starts with import quotas, and laws governing US corporations ability to move operations out of the US, only to re-import the finished product. Until that happens, kiss most manufacturing jobs goodbye.

Guy,

  You are a smart man. I have great respect for you. You know that.   

Tell me how any company can compete with an overhead that triples our domestic companies' competitors.

Legacy costs. Base wages that are HUGE. The benefit packages are huge. Great if you are fortunate enough to enjoy them, but THEY RAISE THE OVERHEAD beyond what the market will bear. 

There CAN NOT be government intervention on Capitalism. Its against out Constitution!! As soon as we do, we have to revert to the last time we closed our borders.  Does 1928 ring a bell?  Thats what spurred the Market Crash. Obviously, there are saeguards in place now to prevent that, but still.

Like it or not, we entered a Global Economy 35 years ago, when Nixon started talks with China.

All the Walmart thinking has finally caught up with us.  No one wants to be responsible for this dilemma we are in. ITS OUR OWN DOING!    We, the buying public control what comes into our country, what gets bought, and what gets returned to the manufacter.

Look at GM . They recently announced new smaller gas efficient  cars coming. Hello??  America has requested that since the Japs sent the first Datsun over the pond.  Obviously, the country has little regard for domestic workers who make 2-3 times the average salary. They bought foriegn, leaving the domestic workers outside.

 How can the government legistlate what we buy? Or are they supposed to limit our choices? 

SO MYSELF AND HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF MEN AND WOMEN THAT WORKED AND RETIRED FROM GENERAL MOTORS FOR YEARS ARE NOT ENTITLED TO THEIR PENSION, OR THEIR HEALTH COVERAGE BECAUSE YEARS THAT OUR UNION NEG CONTRACTS WITH GENERAL MOTORS HAS NOW RUINED THE COMPANY!!!!!!!! SHOCK DOC, ARE YOU FOR REAL OR WHAT. GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!!!!!!!! 3:16 (yammie '' big '' tony)

The Shock Doc wrote:

YAMMIEGOD316 wrote: DOC AND FORMULA111, I,LL SUM THIS WHOLE TOPIC UP FOR YOU GUYS, TELL ME HOW GREAT '' MANGEMENT '' HAS RUN THESE CORPERATIONS. EXAMPLE!!! HOW ABOUT ROCHESTER N.Y. GREAT EASTMAN KODAK.  YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT COMPANIES THAT WERE RUINED BY UNIONS. NOTHING BIGGER THAN EASTMAN '' NON-UNION KODAK '' !!! 40 YEARS OF VOTEING THE UNION OUT FOR SOFTBALL FIELDS, BOWLING ALLEYS , AND THEIR BIG FAT BONUS. YA KNOW WHAT THEY GOT FOR IT. GUYS WITH 25 AND 30 YEARS SHOW,IN THE DOOR. NOTHING, THEIR BENEFICTS STOP AFTER THREE MONTHS. THEIR 401 K SCREWED WITH AND NO PENSION. YOU TWO KEEP BLAMING THE UAW FOR GM PROBLEMS. NEXT TIME YOUR IN ROCHESTER, HAVE SOMEBODY TAKE YA WHERE EASTMAN KODAK USE TO BE. AND DOC I ,AM FARR FROM A UNION HYPECRITE, THE UNION SAVED MY THIRTY YEARS . I WAS ABLE TO KEEP MY HEALTH BENEFICTS, (which i pay alot more for now ) MY SENORITY AND MY PENSION.  3:16 (yammie '' big '' tony) Tony- You were extremely fortunate to have what you have. There is no doubt. But there is no way in todays market, that ANY company can survive providing that cost.   You blame management. Well, you are dead wrong. Thats a ruse used by Unions forever, to disguise the real reasons of what kills a business.     These legacy costs are yet another reason there are no jobs here.  Look at what GM pays you right now.  WHAT do you produce right now. Zero, zip nada.  Now multiply that times the retirees. They paid you the highest wages while you were working, and now that you are NOT working, they are still paying huge numbers. They simply can not afford to meet the commitments they made in the past, and continue  to do so.  All the Hyundai, Yugos,et al, have ZERO legacy. They have a clean slate.   Thats a huge reason we cant be competitive.  THAT IS WHY THEY GO OFFSHORE so much. Now before you go  completely off the wall, you need to remember how the UAW was in the 50's, fresh from WWII and Korean War. They had such a BOOM , they needed to entice people to come to work for them. Before WWII, there was no such thing as retirement, vacation, health insurance. Just like Korea, China, etal today. THEY are the AMERICA of the 50's business wise.   Today, we dont need to entice people to come to work fro outrageous money. You can offer $25/hour & health insurance, and the doors will be busted down. Thats OUR ECONOMY today.   You use Eastman as an example. Perfect. Use a company thats been eliminated by technology. Who uses film today? Nobody.  Who uses a film type camera? Nobody. So just how does this company survive this technoboom?  Stay on the cutting edge, right? Eastman holds MANY patents that were stolen by Japanese and Chinese companies for these digital cameras. A US patent does not mean dick on foriegn soil. NO protection. All thats is down the toilet. They find the patent, copy anything worthy, and produce it by someone making $2.00.  HOW IS THAT EASTMANS FAULT?   Our governemt has spent billions of dollars fighting anti-trust lawsuits, getting awards, with ZERO enforcement. My daughter worked in DC on Intellectual Properties as as an intern.  We're fighting a battle that we cant win.  And YOU said it yourself. They got huge annual bonus's. If they invested them, they would have a nice retirement. Instead, they probably have tons of toys to take its place.    Now, just so you know, if a company promises a benefit, I feel they better darn well provide it. Its against the law for them to touch retirement accounts. I steward my companies retirement program, and there are more damn forms and legal papers to file, that I care to talk about. AND I USE AN ACCOUNTANT!!          OK, enough of all that. I have a serious question to ask you.   Who are the largest Union employers?  Big Business, right? Where is your retirement programs invested in? Trick question, it can only be Mid Cap and Large Cap corps, AKA Big Business. The Dems are historically ANTI Big Business. Unions traditionally support Democrats.   Why on Gods green earth would the rank & file support ANYONE that is trying to put their employer out of business, and where their retirement programs are invested??  I dont understand.   BTW, not trying to argue with you, just a civil conversation.

TALK ABOUT THE!!!!!!! HYPROCRITE. WHY DON,T YOU OUTLINE PARAGRAPH THREE!!!!!!!!!!! WHERE I THINK YOU SAY ME AND OTHER GM RETIRES ARE GETTING PAID HUGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY FOR '' ZIP, ZOO DA, NULL '' NOTHING ''  FOR NOT WORKING ANYMORE!!!THAT HOW IT GOES !! I AM GONNA TELL YA THIS, I SAW A 5000 EMPLOYE PLANT REDUSED NOW TO CLOSED BECAUSE OF POOR MANGEMENT. MY UNION BENT OVER BACKWARDS TO TRY AND KEEP THAT BUSINESS HERE. MY UNION EVEN AGREED TO A THREE TIER WAGE SCALE. OH I BET YOU RIP THE UNION FOR THAT !!!!!!!!!!!! JUST TO TRY AND HELP THE COMPANY. I SEEN JOBS BANK, I SEEN LAYOFFS, I SEEN 1 WEEK ON 1 OFF, I SEEN HELP PAY HEALTH COVERAGE, I BEEN AT UNION MEETING WHERE OUR SHOP CHAIRMAN PREACHED TO US WE MUST HELP THE COMPANY TO SAVE JOBS. WHAT IT GET US. BIG MOUTHS LIKE YOU WHO TALK REAL FANCEY ON HERE BUT DON,T KNOW ***. THE COMPANY HAD IT DONE TO CLOSE THAT PLANT, JUST LIKE PLANTS IN YOUR SYRACUSE. ALL THE COMPANY GOOD FOR IS FILING CHAPTER 11 WHEN THEY REALIZE THEY CANT BREAK THE CONTRACT THEY SIGNED!!!!!!! GIVE ME A BREAK. 3:16 (yammie '' big '' tony)

I have a customer who was a consultant to the automotive industry and he chukles when he tells me that the saying used to be at GM ...100% of the time 50% of the people are doing nothing.I can empathasize with both sides of the equation but Shockdoc brings up a lot of great points about running a business.You simply cannot compete in a global market with costs that exceed your competitors.We all want a high standard of living but there are a lot of people in the world that are happy with a fraction of what we have.In the end it is the absolute job of the management of a publically traded company to ensure profits and longevity of the company to the shareholders of the company...That is why they are in business because they borrow money and provide a return to the people who own the company.Once we realize this we can swallow the rest of the decisions a bit easier.The labor force is indeed a critical part of the quality and workmanship of a company and while necessary, many labor jobs are being replaced.Look at the automation to ensure 2 things, efficiency and quality.Robots don't go on strike, get hurt, call in sick or need pensions.The new GM plant in mexico has more people working on the grounds than in the factory.

Bonus question of the day............What percent of a Ford Mustang...the iconic legenday muscle car of America for 44 years is made in America??

This is a tender subject I hope everyone prospers but the main thing to teach your kids is to try to get a good education and take care of your own destiny as much as possible. The day they start a job, start saving for retirement. The days of 30years and out and a cushy pension are folklore at Thanksgiving Dinners now.We all are lied to everyday about the world and be smart enough to form your own opinions.

Good Night

 

Tony, I think a new Yamaha in your garage will fix the situation just fine.